Jeffrey Goldberg: We spend a lot of time thinking about this, so let’s talk about the delivery system.
Kara Swisher: Yes, that’s right.
Jeffrey Goldberg: You can see us on YouTube and anywhere else. Do you have journalistic values from PBS, The New York Times, The Atlantic, CBS, et Cetera, et Cetera, AP, Reuters? Can these be transferred to a platform that you are very comfortable with?
Kara Swisher: Yes. absolutely. We are growing like crazy. I don’t – we think so – I do an hour of interviews. I did that in Iran this morning. To do substantial things. It’s – the problem is understanding the product you are making. I don’t want to think like that, like a journalist, but that’s the news business, right? You need to make money with it.
And do you need to understand whether you should make money through advertising? Do I need to subscribe? Should I make a product? Do I need to hold an event? So, one of the things I did when I started was that I had an event business. I had an ad. We seemed to be looking for a lot of different revenue streams.
Jeffrey Goldberg: That’s right.
Kara Swisher: You need to understand what is right. The other is that the idea that young people only want small, stupid things is not true. They see it essentially, but it depends on where they are looking. And it’s a really good example, like PBS. My son, I was doing something for one of the PBS, and the big PBS shows. And my son called me in the meantime. And I, oh, I seem to be doing this taping.
And he said, oh, I love that show. I always see it. And I was like, ahhh, you were looking at PBS. And he goes, no, I watch YouTube. What is the difference? That’s – no difference. YouTube is currently on TV. And if you’re not in a hurry towards it at this point, then one day it won’t be. But if you’re not in a hurry to YouTube now, you’re making a big mistake as a media company.
Jeffrey Goldberg: That’s right. So quality, scope of attention, all of these issues are platform crucial in this regard.
Kara Swisher: Right.
Jeffrey Goldberg: Do you do that? So it’s the most hopeful thing I’ve heard for a while, and the idea that young people are actually paying attention.
Kara Swisher: They do.
Jeffrey Goldberg: That’s kind of what you’re proposing. They are attracting attention for good things.
Kara Swisher: They are very discerning media people. Let’s make something they like. They pay attention. They like longer things. I think it’s the question of what is there. I spent a lot of time on the distribution system. And when I was in the Washington Post, when I started covering AOL, I was the first reporter to do it, but I thought everything that could be digitized would be digitized.
So why are we doing this on paper? I didn’t understand that. And when I went to the “Wall Street Journal,” we were one of those meetings and you were in these 100. For example, how do you make young people read the newspaper? And it’s all the old man in the room and that’s my favorite part. And I happened to be a young man.
And I raised my hands and they rarely invited me to a meeting. And I tape the joints between every page. I don’t know anything like that. And they are, that’s not interesting. No, that’s right.
Jeffrey Goldberg: No, that’s funny.
Kara Swisher: I haven’t read the print paper, so that’s a good idea. So give it to them. If you want to eat it, if they want to eat it, if they want to put it on salami and give it to them, what do you care about? And I think that’s what happened.
Jeffrey Goldberg: I don’t put joints on every page. It can increase your costs considerably. Let’s talk about AI from another area you’re always thinking about. How to maintain AI is clearly on the verge of elections.
Kara Swisher: Certainly.
Jeffrey Goldberg: How do we protect fakes from tsunamis in our understanding of reality?
Kara Swisher: I have to say so – I’m paying a lot of attention to AI now. Look at the damage the internet has done. Look at the damage. And this is the internet of steroids.
Jeffrey Goldberg: Now, wait, stop. Just go back to this. What defines the damage the internet has inflicted on politics?
Kara Swisher: The ability of malicious players to screw with people like they normally do, just like floods of previous information. Previously, we had an information desert with many people. We did. People didn’t have many options.
Jeffrey Goldberg: That’s right.
Kara Swisher: Probably a local station. Now they have a flood. And it’s as bad as the desert. Either way, that’s not a good thing. And with AI, you can really do things. And in the good part, it can probably solve cancer. On the bad, on the interesting part, you like Westwing. We’re going to make you 10 more episodes and 10 more seasons. You don’t even need to find an actor anymore. That’s a bit cool. Like –
Jeffrey Goldberg: I’ll explain how it works.
Kara Swisher: They feed the show. The show has seven or eight seasons.
Jeffrey Goldberg: That’s right. And you say – you
Kara Swisher: Yes.
Jeffrey Goldberg: – Just create a new season for AI.
Kara Swisher: Go Make. And I want this to be there more. I want this to happen.
Jeffrey Goldberg: That’s right.
Kara Swisher: There are all kinds of things. But it can also cause all sorts of confusion, especially around the video. It was like – if you first everyone, oh, it had 6 or 3 fingers. Well, that’s true today. But go back and look at the early internet websites.
Jeffrey Goldberg: That’s right.
Kara Swisher: You know, the most popular website at the beginning of the internet was a camera pointing to a coffee pot making coffee.
Jeffrey Goldberg: That’s right.
Kara Swisher: We’re way beyond that. And you had nothing. All you have to do is predict what you don’t expect. Can you predict when the App Store starts Uber? perhaps. Not anyone. You know –
Jeffrey Goldberg: Well, after someone did it, they got rich. Yeah.
Kara Swisher: Someone did that. But at first you didn’t.
Jeffrey Goldberg: That’s right.
Kara Swisher: You didn’t know. And I can – you could see all kinds of really interesting media applications in AI, you can also easily see dangerous ones.
Jeffrey Goldberg: What do you do to stop the waves? But we just saw Mountain Head. I’m
Kara Swisher: Yes. Mountain Head.
Jeffrey Goldberg: Mountain Head. you know what –
Kara Swisher: Successful Jesse. He too –
Jeffrey Goldberg: Yeah, yeah. So, that’s great. And it wasn’t that crazy or satirical. That felt a bit, oh, this – these are things that can happen. The introduction of fake videos can promote massive violence. How do you stop? Why isn’t that?
Kara Swisher: Well, one of the great lines in it got me something funny like Snoopy with a huge penis. Did you remember? Or you have this. And what’s interesting about the film is that there was a guy who was a good AI guy, right?
Jeffrey Goldberg: That’s right.
Kara Swisher: Was he so good? What he said is, what would you think if the information cancer was there and had a cure? He was more interested in the money that could do it. And the question is, if we say, there is a way to follow this video to make this video come true. Should we legislate it? It is the kind of thing that we should have – our legislators and we don’t think about anything.
But they knew the laws against high-tech companies. They ramp out throughout our media. They ramp out throughout our politics. And as you know, these are digital arm dealers in a very clear way. And we did nothing about it. And we won’t go under this administration.
Jeffrey Goldberg: And, you know, these people are better than most reporters than the feeling that they are on very wild horses and know that they have to control this before the election lies down?
Kara Swisher: They don’t care. I want them to understand that they like them, how can they do it? I don’t seem to care. They are interested in shareholder value. And you have to understand – I know you are down on the soul. They don’t care. Incidentally, they don’t think they’re going to be responsible. They believe that people are responsible. They believe that cable is responsible. The media is responsible. They are – they are the biggest managers. They’re just making things. But even if people use it, it’s like a gun won’t kill people, and people kill people.
Jeffrey Goldberg: Well, it’s like an analogy for drug dealers. If they want, I have no control over someone wanting drugs.
Kara Swisher: Of course you can.
Jeffrey Goldberg: That’s right.
Kara Swisher: Of course you can. And one of them was that they were not subject to any regulations. And the regulations they covered will serve Section 230. They can do anything they can. And let me tell you, sometimes it leads to great things. Sometimes it leads to precisely.
Jeffrey Goldberg: You know, this amazing eo Wilson Line, you know, primate, evolutionary biologist. He says that the central challenge of our time is that we have Paleolithic emotions, medieval institutions, divine techniques.
Kara Swisher: That’s right. that’s right.
Jeffrey Goldberg: And that’s – that’s what we’re heading.
Kara Swisher: But they’re rich too. That’s the part you’re not thinking about. These people – I’m waiting –
Jeffrey Goldberg: They fund your technology.
Kara Swisher: That’s right. It’s – they have power now – they weren’t interested in Washington. I once had Bill Gates in the Washington Post and he’s like, oh, Washington. There are no lobbyists here. He was before Mrs. Graham.
Jeffrey Goldberg: Yes.
Kara Swisher: Washington doesn’t bother. They care about Washington, so they buy it here.
Jeffrey Goldberg: That’s right. That – there’s a lot to talk about. I have one more question.
Kara Swisher: OK.
Jeffrey Goldberg: That’s a bit impossible, but give it a try anyway.
Kara Swisher: OK.
Jeffrey Goldberg: How do you think we will get information ten years from now? Clearly, Washington Week and the Atlantic and your podcast, but put them aside.
Kara Swisher: I’m probably going to die now.
Jeffrey Goldberg: If you say that, you should not die. You are very healthy.
Kara Swisher: I’m old –
Jeffrey Goldberg: We’re all going to get older.
Kara Swisher: That’s right.
Jeffrey Goldberg: How do you get information?
Kara Swisher: You know, I think there’s real business for good information and really good reporting. I don’t think that will change. I really don’t.
Jeffrey Goldberg: That’s an interesting thing about subsacks.
Kara Swisher: That’s right.
Jeffrey Goldberg: There are not many reports.
Kara Swisher: No, not that. But there are some interesting insights in that part. But that doesn’t mean you can’t make a business yet. For me, you run towards where people need them and they need great information. And I don’t think that will change.
What they need to understand – is delivery. You’re going to get everything in your eyes. There will be – you’re going to wear things. They don’t look like them – they’re a little heavy now. But everything will happen – once you’ve seen one movie, take a look at the Minority Report. It was a warrant – it was done. They had consultants who found it great in terms of where things were heading. Everything is monitored and monitored. They will know when you will walk. They will know what you want. And that’s for me – that’s it. And we make good products, not bad products. They’ll sell as well. But as with Twinkies, so are bad products. It’s very popular.
Jeffrey Goldberg: We have to leave it there for now. The challenge at home is to look at the Minority Report. Thank you for watching. I would like to thank Kara for joining us.
